Any chance of some documentation for CT Pro?

[alanrew]

Steve,

To make use of the features in CT Pro I think we badly need some documentation for the new features that weren’t in previous versions of CT.

Do you have any plans for this?

Any timetable for its production?

TIA

Alan

[Michael_Eddington]

I’d add that I’d be willing to part with some coin to attend a Colorthink webinar/webex session. Your road-show demo is all it would take really.

[Patrick_Herold]

Both the ColorThink 2 and ColorThink Pro manuals are on our www.colorwiki.com site under the section for manuals:

colorwiki.com/wiki/ColorThink_Pro_3_Manual

[soren]

This is what many people ask… a better manual thank you…

Colorthink tutorials are pretty sad in they show you
How to see if you profile is neutral and than tell you that if you
find it is not you have to rebuild your profile. This really seems
like only half of the equation as they don’t go into any explanation
of what changes to make or how one would take the data and get a
better profile as a result. It is like reading mystery novel and when
you get to the end you find out the last chapter is missing.

How do you start with one setting, create the profile, evaluate
the profile in colorthink and than make an educated decision on what
settings in your profile software to modify? This is the piece of the
puzzle I don’t get and is not explained anywhere I can see. Even in
books like Andrew Rodney’s Color Management for Photographers he talks
about how good Colorthinks graphing is but again does nothing in
saying what to do with this graph.

Soren

[VG1 (VG)]

@soren

This is what many people ask… a better manual thank you…

Colorthink tutorials are pretty sad in they show you
How to see if you profile is neutral and than tell you that if you
find it is not you have to rebuild your profile. This really seems
like only half of the equation as they don’t go into any explanation
of what changes to make or how one would take the data and get a
better profile as a result. It is like reading mystery novel and when
you get to the end you find out the last chapter is missing.

How do you start with one setting, create the profile, evaluate
the profile in colorthink and than make an educated decision on what
settings in your profile software to modify? This is the piece of the
puzzle I don’t get and is not explained anywhere I can see. Even in
books like Andrew Rodney’s Color Management for Photographers he talks
about how good Colorthinks graphing is but again does nothing in
saying what to do with this graph.

Soren

Soren,
A most appropriate analogy, I must say!
The graphing capabilities of CT are good for an overall visual idea of profile comparison. However, I have found no link between the graphs and the color data itself. The Color Worksheet shows a table based on a grid selection, but doesn’t graph these corresponding points. It would seem that if you have a worksheet open, then selecte a range of data points, press Ctrl-2 or CTrl-3, then you’d get a targeted data graph. I haven’t found any way of doing this in the docs. You or anyone else know if this can be done?
Regards,
George

[soren]

George wrote:
The Color Worksheet shows a table based on a grid selection, but doesn’t graph these corresponding points. It would seem that if you have a worksheet open, then selecte a range of data points, press Ctrl-2 or CTrl-3, then you’d get a targeted data graph. I haven’t found any way of doing this in the docs. You or anyone else know if this can be done?
Regards,
George

I have the same problem, it does not work. I tried with “extract unique colors” and then selected a range of colors. By pressing the Ctrl-2 or Ctrl-3 opens up the graph but nothing more happens

Did you have a look at the “Gamutvision” software? Its very nice and not as buggy as CTP and Norman is very responsive if you mail him. I have just mailed him points I wish could be implemented in the software. He will have a look into it and said it would not be a big problem.

Soren

[VG1 (VG)]

@soren

George wrote:
The Color Worksheet shows a table based on a grid selection, but doesn’t graph these corresponding points. It would seem that if you have a worksheet open, then selecte a range of data points, press Ctrl-2 or CTrl-3, then you’d get a targeted data graph. I haven’t found any way of doing this in the docs. You or anyone else know if this can be done?
Regards,
George

I have the same problem, it does not work. I tried with “extract unique colors” and then selected a range of colors. By pressing the Ctrl-2 or Ctrl-3 opens up the graph but nothing more happens

Did you have a look at the “Gamutvision” software? Its very nice and not as buggy as CTP and Norman is very responsive if you mail him. I have just mailed him points I wish could be implemented in the software. He will have a look into it and said it would not be a big problem.

Soren

Soren
I’ve tried out Gamutvision, but not in the last 6 months or so. I had a phone conversation with Norman a while back about some ideas with the prog and he was very open to implementation. There was an issue at the time with his use of specific targets in the workflow that I was concerned about, but for the life of me, I can’t find my notes on it.
I’m going to take another look at it this week though as CT Pro is driving me batty.
Thanx,
George

[Steve_Upton]

At 10:18 AM -0800 3/9/07, soren wrote:

This is what many people ask… a better manual thank you…

Colorthink tutorials are pretty sad in they show you
How to see if you profile is neutral and than tell you that if you
find it is not you have to rebuild your profile. This really seems
like only half of the equation as they don’t go into any explanation
of what changes to make or how one would take the data and get a
better profile as a result. It is like reading mystery novel and when
you get to the end you find out the last chapter is missing.

I appreciate you are looking for more information but this extra step is along the lines of an intelligent analysis system which can be very difficult to build. There are many reasons why errors such as this can creep into a profile and determining the best method of correction can be tough (basically, it requires an experienced technician to know).

How do you start with one setting, create the profile, evaluate
the profile in colorthink and than make an educated decision on what
settings in your profile software to modify? This is the piece of the
puzzle I don’t get and is not explained anywhere I can see.

what I suggest is using ColorThink to diagnose such problems and, if possible, help isolate their source and then ask around (this list works fine).

Regards,

Steve

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[Steve_Upton]

At 3:45 AM -0800 3/10/07, VG wrote:

Soren,
A most appropriate analogy, I must say!The graphing capabilities of CT are good for an overall visual idea of profile comparison. However, I have found no link between the graphs and the color data itself. The Color Worksheet shows a table based on a grid selection, but doesn’t graph these corresponding points. It would seem that if you have a worksheet open, then selecte a range of data points, press Ctrl-2 or CTrl-3, then you’d get a targeted data graph. I haven’t found any way of doing this in the docs. You or anyone else know if this can be done?

Actually control-2 or control-3 will simply open the Grapher (empty).

The Worksheet can hold many different sources of color information (multiple lists, images, profiles) so simply opening a graph would have it graph all of them? Seems to complicated.

The best method to graph color data is to select the popup menu above one of the lists (there is a popup for each transformation’s list) and choose ‘graph’

Regards,

Steve

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o Steve Upton CHROMiX www.chromix.com

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[Steve_Upton]

At 4:27 AM -0700 3/11/07, soren wrote:

I have the same problem, it does not work. I tried with “extract unique colors” and then selected a range of colors. By pressing the Ctrl-2 or Ctrl-3 opens up the graph but nothing more happens

again, that will simply open the Grapher.

Selecting a list’s popup and choosing ‘graph’ will graph them. It will not graph a sub-set of the list but you can select a range of the list and the colors will be highlighted in the graph.

Regards,

Steve

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o Steve Upton CHROMiX www.chromix.com

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[VG1 (VG)]

@Steve Upton

At 3:45 AM -0800 3/10/07, VG wrote:

Soren,
A most appropriate analogy, I must say!The graphing capabilities of CT are good for an overall visual idea of profile comparison. However, I have found no link between the graphs and the color data itself. The Color Worksheet shows a table based on a grid selection, but doesn’t graph these corresponding points. It would seem that if you have a worksheet open, then selecte a range of data points, press Ctrl-2 or CTrl-3, then you’d get a targeted data graph. I haven’t found any way of doing this in the docs. You or anyone else know if this can be done?

Actually control-2 or control-3 will simply open the Grapher (empty).
VG-Another example of the rather disjointed UI that CT Pro has. Like having to click new when I access a color worksheet for the first time. Or having the profile/image selector on the right side of the screen, which on 2 of may test systems, doesn’t show up unless I scroll right. Or the inability to move or resize the selection grid on the worksheet.

The Worksheet can hold many different sources of color information (multiple lists, images, profiles) so simply opening a graph would have it graph all of them? Seems to complicated.
VG-Yes, why not? That is the intuitive reasoning that myself and a lot of people would see. Or simply allow one or more source selections. You have to hand build this in Grapher anyway unless you want just a point/vector graph of list data which is not useful anyways for comparisons. The pick list file selector is being used, so any of the selections can be saved.

The best method to graph color data is to select the popup menu above one of the lists (there is a popup for each transformation’s list) and choose ‘graph’
VG-But only one list at a time. Plus, you can’t effectively resize the grapher output window to show the graph in comparison to the worksheet data as the grapher window doesn’t scroll or scale when resized.

Regards,
Steve

Thanx,
George

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o Steve Upton CHROMiX www.chromix.com

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[Steve_Upton]

At 12:52 PM -0700 3/13/07, VG wrote:

Actually control-2 or control-3 will simply open the Grapher (empty).
VG-Another example of the rather disjointed UI that CT Pro has.

I am interested to hear more about what you mean here. I have worked very hard to make a user interface that is as flexible and intuitive as possible. There really isn’t anything like a Color Worksheet available today to use as a model except, of course, Excel.

The Worksheet can hold many different sources of color information (multiple lists, images, profiles) so simply opening a graph would have it graph all of them? Seems too complicated.
VG-Yes, why not? That is the intuitive reasoning that myself and a lot of people would see.

so if I have a worksheet containing 4 transformations (4 columns) each with its own list of color data and ICC profile you would have ColorThink Pro graph all of them at once? That would be an awfully crowded graph… My thinking was to have a sheet containing many different color data types and the user could selectively graph and compare them as desired. For instance, the colors at the beginning and end of a workflow (and their comparison) may be of interest to a user and not the intermediary colors.

Or simply allow one or more source selections. You have to hand build this in Grapher anyway unless you want just a point/vector graph of list data which is not useful anyways for comparisons.

I’m not clear on this one. Vectors are one of the most popular forms of color comparison in ColorThink. Am I missing something?

The pick list file selector is being used, so any of the selections can be saved.

Not sure what you mean here.

The best method to graph color data is to select the popup menu above one of the lists (there is a popup for each transformation’s list) and choose 'graph’But only one list at a time. Plus, you can’t effectively resize the grapher output window to show the graph in comparison to the worksheet data as the grapher window doesn’t scroll or scale when resized.

You may be dealing with an issue that has been fixed since version 3.0. The Grapher can be resized by its lower right corner and the graphs themselves can be resized at any time by alt-dragging the graph itself (this use of alt needs to change I appreciate - I guess I’ll have to go with control)

Regards,

Steve

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[mikec]

Why cant there be a nice pdf file of the documentation

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[VG1 (VG)]

@Steve Upton

At 12:52 PM -0700 3/13/07, VG wrote:

Actually control-2 or control-3 will simply open the Grapher (empty).
VG-Another example of the rather disjointed UI that CT Pro has.

I am interested to hear more about what you mean here. I have worked very hard to make a user interface that is as flexible and intuitive as possible. There really isn’t anything like a Color Worksheet available today to use as a model except, of course, Excel.

The floater menu always pops up in the same place on the upper left that obscures data and has to be moved each time the prog is run. When selecting worksheet, there is no file selector and the selector only appears after I click new. The file selector is then hidden off screen and I have to scroll right to see it. In Color Worksheet, all controls are left centric with the exception of the file selector. THere is no scroll bar in the dropdown list box for image/profile selection. You have to use the top and bottom arrows or keys to scroll. Some profiles are listed numerous times while other profiles only show boxes for characters. When calling grapher from worksheet, then closing grapher, CT asks if I want to exit Color Think but when I click the X in the upper right of the window or press Ctrl-Q or use File-Exit, the prog just closes with no dialog at all. When opening a profile in Worksheet, I should be able to assign a default test target/image that or be prompted for using the previous target/image. Having to constantly the same file over and over again is a pain.The range selector grid in worksheet is a one shot use, you can only create the grid once, with no moving or resizing abilities. In worksheet, when using the grid selctor, you must click on a target type even though one is already checked. If you just click the grid tool, then click in an image, you only set a single point.

The Worksheet can hold many different sources of color information (multiple lists, images, profiles) so simply opening a graph would have it graph all of them? Seems too complicated.
VG-Yes, why not? That is the intuitive reasoning that myself and a lot of people would see.

so if I have a worksheet containing 4 transformations (4 columns) each with its own list of color data and ICC profile you would have ColorThink Pro graph all of them at once? That would be an awfully crowded graph… My thinking was to have a sheet containing many different color data types and the user could selectively graph and compare them as desired. For instance, the colors at the beginning and end of a workflow (and their comparison) may be of interest to a user and not the intermediary colors.

Of course. Having a camera profile, a working space, a monitor profile and 2 printer profiles is a very common scenario for me. I’m dealing with entire workflows and showing the variations and discrepancies in the workflows. Also, if you throw in the actual image color data as well, you have 6 datasets in the same graph.

Or simply allow one or more source selections. You have to hand build this in Grapher anyway unless you want just a point/vector graph of list data which is not useful anyways for comparisons.

I’m not clear on this one. Vectors are one of the most popular forms of color comparison in ColorThink. Am I missing something?

Vector/points for image data are too disjointed in a lot of images IMHO. You only end up with a few points that give very little relation to where they actually occur in a profile or space.

The pick list file selector is being used, so any of the selections can be saved.

Not sure what you mean here.

When the dropdown list is used at any time to select files, profiles or spaces, it should be a simple matter to keep a history of these.

The best method to graph color data is to select the popup menu above one of the lists (there is a popup for each transformation’s list) and choose 'graph’But only one list at a time. Plus, you can’t effectively resize the grapher output window to show the graph in comparison to the worksheet data as the grapher window doesn’t scroll or scale when resized.

You may be dealing with an issue that has been fixed since version 3.0. The Grapher can be resized by its lower right corner and the graphs themselves can be resized at any time by alt-dragging the graph itself (this use of alt needs to change I appreciate - I guess I’ll have to go with control)

I take it you mean the Tuesday beta? I haven’t seen it yet. Is it available?
Thanx for your time,
George
PS…just saw the beta 11 post…sorry.
PSS…Dl’d beta 11. Opened CT prog and got error n01. Clicked OK, dialog closed (last beta it wouldn’t close most of the time) clicked worksheet, spinner in upper left spins away and am unable to access any functions. Will close conventionally though with file/exit, ctrl-q, window X and is infinitely repeatable.

Regards,

Steve

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